@kekcoin Because a lot of those left-wing environmentalists are promoting a message of solar and wind being the only acceptable solutions for energy generation.

And yet, the on-the-ground reality of actually doing that leads to people getting exposed to much more right-wing ideals, because the real-world reality of that future works much better with high levels of self-sufficiency, and higher levels of income.

Poor people aren't buying generators.

@pete Ah ok. Thanks for elaborating.

@pete good question. i bet it’s possible if you can grow certain superfoods like goji berries.

@pox Sure. But hence my "most ecosystems". Looks like growing goji berries in north america is hard.

Raising chickens on the other hand is relatively easy - I personally know quite a few people who do it.

Animals also make small scale food production easier to do for many other reasons, like pest control, fertilizer, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CevA8vjCOb0

@pox Same thing with hunting/gun ownership. It's a lot easier to hate on hunters and others who kill animals when you don't have problems feral pigs, rats, mice, etc. eating your crops.

@pete not to mention is way harder to eat healthily without animal products. nearly impossible to do so self-sufficiently. but with farm animals you could eat a perfectly healthy diet that's compatible with a long healthspan and avoid metabolic diseases.

@pox ...and even harder again when you have food preservation/winter to think about too.

@pete @pox
I think it depends on the actual reason of living vegan.

Are you trying to protect animals? If you have your own chickens/cows, this argument is not valid because you won't kill the male chickens/cows (as it happens on commercial farms) for eggs/milk.

Do you think animal fats & proteins are unhealthy? Have fun starving (at least in non tropical climate zones).

But I think any sane person would rather switch to a non vegan diary instead of starving - if it's not too late.

@pete @pox
Maybe my first reason doesn't make sense but there are some people who claim to be vegan but eat eggs because they have their own chickens. Of course, this claim is not entirely true.

@XBT @pox Yes, that's exactly why I said vegan rather than vegetarian. The moment you're willing to eat milk and eggs - and thus keep animals - things get way easier re: sustainability and self-sufficiency.

Re: "instead of starving", the scary thing is people with children. Lots of kids have been badly harmed by vegan diets; growing kids are much more vulnerable to malnutrition than their parents, and vegan diets have much less room for error.

Relevant: https://qz.com/1622642/making-your-kids-go-vegan-can-mean-jail-time-in-belgium/

@XBT @pox Of course, on the other end of the scale, I've even known people who describe themselves as semi-vegan and, eg, regularly go hunting. They had no qualms about taking an animals life if their ethical standards were met.

@XBT @pete
how do, like, *own* chickens, man? is that like a NFT?

@pox Exactly, you can also feed them but in reallife they are still mine and I'll also eat all the eggs: https://pollofeed.com/

@XBT @pox we’re having fun feeding your chickens from a remote beach down in Mexico. Will avoid eating pollo asado today haha

@pete The only way to not get enough protein is to not get enough calories. To get enough self sufficient plant based calories, you need fruit and nut trees, you can store nuts, grow and store grains, dehydration and canning also helps. I personally am ok with being dependent on others, much simpler.

All protein comes from plants, animals either get their amino acids directly from plants or from animals that somewhere along the chain got originally from plants.

@richard Vitamin B-12 simply isn't present in plants, with just a handful of exceptions, and those exceptions can't be relied on: https://www.eatrightpro.org/~/media/eatrightpro%20files/practice/position%20and%20practice%20papers/position%20papers/vegetarian-diet.ashx

The only realistic way to get adequate B-12 is naturally from animals, or artificially from a modern lab. That alone makes keeping animals mandatory to be self-sufficient almost everywhere.

Fruit and nut trees are a long-term investment at best, and can't be grown in tons of places. Not to mention, fruit has very little protein.

@richard Growing grains simply isn't feasible in a lot of ecosystems. Ruminants like cattle meanwhile can eat grass that can grow in ecosystems that otherwise wouldn't be able to produce food for us.

Yes, those amino acids may come from plants. But that's irrelevant when you can't digest it; livestock can.

@pete b12 maybe, but what are our actual needs? If you are not aneimic you get enough produced by gut bacteria regardless of what the government charts say. And again the only way to be protein deficient is to be calorie deficient but the real prblem with fruit is it is seasonal and needs supplumented with storables. Protein is over hyped and orders of magnitude more people suffer from excess than lack. Land usability/b12 may be valid pro meat arguments but protein is definitely not.

@richard "If you are not aneimic you get enough produced by gut bacteria regardless of what the government charts say."

Source?

@pete not gov charts, they need a source claiming a problem when none exists. To say one is deficient based on random numbers is meaningless, deficiency causes disease, if no disease, no deficiency. Of course I am a self proclaimed science denier especially with all the covid science, but even before, with thousands of years of medical science we are sicker than ever. I am 60 and in better health than 90+% of those in their 30s and I do it half assed, 33 years meat/b12less.